Arsenal dragged into Manchester City whataboutery due to ‘various mechanisms’ for FFP

The Cult of Manchester City is slammed but really ‘there has always been deceit running through the game’, including at self-important Arsenal.

Everybody cheats Hi,

I’ve noticed that many of those trying to take shots at Manchester City seem to have very selective memories. They forget that there has always been deceit running through the game, even within the so-called purest forms of football.

Fouls that are clearly against the rules, diving and deliberately misleading officials are commonplace and, to a large extent, accepted. Barcelona, often held up as one of the greatest football teams ever, were masters of tactical fouling. So the outrage when certain rules are broken — particularly rules that are deeply discriminatory at their core — can come across as more than a little two-faced.

The same applies when it comes to financial doping. Across Europe, clubs in Spain, Italy and elsewhere have received various forms of assistance from their respective governments and institutions, often without the same level of scrutiny or consequences. Barcelona have faced long-standing questions over their finances, while Real Madrid have benefited from significant financial assistance and debt arrangements over the years. Yet both clubs are still frequently held up as institutions others should aspire to emulate.

Financial Fair Play was supposedly introduced to level the playing field. In reality, it has arguably strengthened the position of those already at the top and helped create something approaching a monopoly. Since its introduction, it has often seemed anything but fair.

Clubs such as Arsenal have benefited from substantial financial support from their owners through various mechanisms. While such arrangements may comply with the letter of FFP rules, that does not necessarily mean they comply with the spirit of what those rules were supposed to achieve. The outrage from some of their supporters therefore seems to expose a certain double standard.

Manchester United provides another example. The club has been saddled with enormous levels of debt and, as one of the country’s biggest sporting institutions, has at times been made a laughing stock because of it. Yet much of this has been perfectly legal under the existing rules. If the original purpose of those rules was to prevent clubs from being burdened with unsustainable debt, then clearly there are ways around them — particularly if you happen to be one of the privileged few.

From the outset, these rules have felt protectionist. They have helped ensure that those already sitting at the top table remain there, with example after example reinforcing that view.

In Manchester City’s case, there is no obvious risk of the club being driven into insolvency by its owner’s investment. The money has been put into the club for a specific purpose, and personally, I have no problem with that. If an individual, family or ownership group has the means and the desire to invest their own money into a football club, they should be able to do so, provided they are not putting the club itself at risk.

In Manchester City’s case, it is also difficult to ignore the positive impact that investment has had on the club, its supporters and the wider region.

I’m not a Manchester City fan, in fact Manchester United is my second team, but in this particular situation, I find myself standing with them.

There should absolutely be safeguards to protect clubs from being run beyond their means, but Financial Fair Play has never been the right way to achieve that. If the authorities genuinely want to protect football clubs, perhaps they should focus more closely on debt being loaded onto clubs so that owners can extract value for themselves.

In Manchester City’s case, the club has benefited from an ownership group that appears to believe in the club, the project and its supporters enough to put its own money where its mouth is.

Could the Glazers say the same? David

READ MORE: Ten Manchester City grounds for appeal and why they won’t wash

Man City winning stopped mattering A note to David re: ‘How the turn tables’. I wanted Man City to beat Arsenal not only because Arteta is himself and the style was rancid stodge, but because I stopped thinking of City as a real club years ago. Arsenal are a proper rival and your titles count. Even if Arteta was Jurgen Klopp reincarnate and they played Guardiola football, I wouldn’t want them catching up to Liverpool. So yes, I wanted you to lose to a sham club whose achievements mean nothing. It’s a sign of respect.

Also, why are so many people equivocating on expulsion from the Premier League being the obviously correct remedy? I hope the EFL sends them packing and at best, they land in the National League North. A massive, relegation-guaranteeing points deduction is only good as an immediate remedy and a one-off. To make sure they’re not in the Premier League next year one way or another. A safety net. But then go about the paperwork of officially expelling them from the league by the end of the season. Ongoing points deductions that last years will only serve to further distort the integrity of the competitions they play in, and keep them hanging around like a bad, whiny smell. Nah. 80 point deduction this season. Ban them from the PL for the same duration as the period in question, but should really be for as long as the defiantly dishonest ownership has been in charge of City. If the EFL get seduced into cloistering them in the Championship, they can’t just bounce back up. Fine them the exact value of their cheating. Remove the fit and proper status of the owners and force them to sell. Clean slate…the new City will deserve the chance to build itself back up from there. Rob, LFC, NYC

It would all have been fine… When you think about it, it’s absolutely mental how far this Man City business has travelled. Last week it was a football story, now the UAE is reportedly warning the Prime Minister that billions in investment could go, depending on how hard a football club gets punished.

That settles one argument at least. In 2008 the Premier League (and City fans) were told this was a private purchase. Private owners can’t put a country’s trade relationship on the table because a tribunal went against them.

Say what you like about the Glazers but they’ve only ever wanted the money. You know where you stand. City’s owners wanted something bigger. It’s a power play, isn’t it? Reputation, plus a way into British institutions.

Same goes for the “look what they’ve done for east Manchester” line. Public land in Ancoats went to a private venture on long leases and came back as flats with no social housing. That’s a property deal. Nobody does one of those out of charity or love for the people of Manchester.

Everyone’s asking what Britain loses if Abu Dhabi takes its money home. I’d ask whether we want a partner who cheats to get what they want, then threatens to walk when they’re caught. They didn’t invest here as a favour. They invested because we had something they wanted. We still have it.

The daft part is that the whole project was about reputation. Eighteen years of image building, followed by denial, an army of lawyers, the chairman in Downing Street a fortnight before the verdict and now threats. If the plan was to look like a trustworthy modern state, it’s going badly.

What gets me is that all of it would have been fine. Buy the club, buy the land, have your power play. Most of us had made our peace with that. The one condition was playing by the same rules as the other 19 clubs. John-Jack (AFC Wimbledon – owned by our fans, none of whom has a sovereign wealth fund)

The Cult of City It’s hard not to be fascinated by the response of the hard core city fans calling into football shows or even an ex-City CFO who seemed to have no clue – at least no clue about the process indicting City, as if the ‘trial’ had not yet started – and there was still time to submit (yet more irrefutable) evidence. Evidence that had already been refuted before. (Does make you wonder how that numpty could have been a CFO but then didn’t Francis Lee say if there were trophies for cock ups, City would be the winner.)

But the City fan who called in to claim that this was all nonsense because City have always been a big club, bigger than the red cartel but then still blaming this all on the red cartel trying to keep City in their place smacked of incredible delusion but also the cult-like following we see today in so many areas. Whatever the people being followed say, must be true.

I still find this fixation on the ‘red cartel’ hard to understand. I get envy at their success. I get the idea that their current financial standing gives them an advantage. But there is a sense that some fans, and definitely many City fans, see it as ‘ill-gotten’ in some way.

I am a Liverpool fan from the 60s. Liverpool had been on some rocky times, languishing in Division 2. Shankly had to beg for any money he could get. But he did manage to get them to Division 1 and in a short time, champions. Man Utd were the main team at the time, even recovering from having their great side ravaged in the Munich air crash. But many clubs were competitive then. Everton, Leeds, Wolves, Derby, Spurs even. The gap between teams in Division 1 and 2 was pretty slim. It was not uncommon for promoted teams to do well the following year. Heck, Ramsey got a newly promoted Ipswich side to Division 1 winners in one year!

Even in Liverpool’s hay days, Notts Forest won the league and the European Cup, and Aston Villa did the same.

Any club could break the transfer record and buy great players and win trophies. Trevor Francis to Forest would be a great example.

Liverpool lucked out by having a great manager in the incredibly underrated Bob Paisley and a continuity in management from Shankly to Dalglish that worked for them. Sustaining success. A bit like the naughties Chelsea that, apart from the financial start that built them, had a backbone that seemed to imbue itself into a squad over an extended period. Same with the Ferguson United.

But Liverpool, United and Arsenal didn’t cheat. They’ve had long periods without success. Man Utd even got relegated and Arsenal have always had patchy success since their great era in the 30s. What they have is a large fan base. Played some great football (well perhaps not Arsenal – Henry and Bergkamp aside) and fully embraced playing in Europe. In fact if anything it is those European successes that drive broader support and ultimately financial clout. At least when it came to getting sponsors.

While I recall City doing well in the late sixties, they always seemed like a nearly club, getting relegated to Division 3 at one point. So the fact a fan would be almost screaming at the call in hosts about how big Manchester City have always been – bigger even than the red cartel clubs (with the insinuation, clearly, that they had earned those higher sponsorship fees) – I could only listen in awe of how far down the rabbit hole some fans have gone. (And that he didn’t have a heart attack on air.)

City have become a cult. As only a cult following can ignore reality to the extent that fan had. The emotion, the anger at the red cartel (and the incredulous hosts) dripped off of every word.

Where is all this going? Well, everything the red cartel did up until Chelsea were taken over by Abramovich were things any and every club could have done. If there was no FFP and now PSR, how many more clubs would have ended up like a Portsmouth? United saw it first, under Gill’s leadership and ramped up United’s commercial side (whether good or bad in that it ultimately brought on the glazer takeover), Arsenal followed and brought in Wenger and improved so many areas of the playing side and then built a stadium to increase future revenues at a short term cost, and Liverpool finally came out of almost going belly up under Hicks & Gillette, to be turned into a strong competitor on and off the field. They didn’t cheat doing any of these things. So putting these clubs up as everything that is wrong in the game – the bête noire to excuse your team’s bad behaviour is an appeal to hypocrisy, straw man, generic fallacy, false dilemma, whataboutism at its worst. (Take your pick.)

In one call, that fan went through the first two stages of grief. Denial and Anger. Now just waiting for all the Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. Although from the Abu Dhabi Group, I think we go from Anger to Scorched Earth. Paul McDevitt

Just a City situation I’ve been Pascal enGrossed reading all the possible permutations regarding possible Man City sanctions, including possible expulsion to the Evo-Stick League Northern Premier.

But then I regreatably realised that whatever happens, Man City will most likely be in the Premier League for the rest of this season. Unless they are kicked out before the next round of fixtures but even then there are issues. Bournemouth, Palace, Sunderland, Man Utd, and Coventry have all lost to Man City so the mathematics on calculating points from those fixtures is relatively simple.

If Liverpool beat Man City in the next fixture, and they are then kicked out what happens then? Take those three points off Liverpool? Imagine the chaos if one/three/eleven Liverpool starters sustained season ending injuries in that match and Man City are kicked out the week after.

Either way, those teams would have played one more game than every other team in the league come the end of the season whether points are allocated or not. And given the intensity of the schedules already on teams, not even Man City accountancy could make sense of that numerical confusion.

Everton got an eight point deduction for two breaches and Forest got a four point deduction for one breach. Using that scale, one solution would be to give Man City a 456 point deduction and do the maths down the tables to find out which league they end up in for the 27/28 season.

And possibly make Man City play out the rest of the season in leg shackles (handcuffs for the goalkeeper) to lessen the possibility of them actually winning the league. Man City being crowned Champions of 26/27 would be beyond awkward. Danny, Brighton

Hi,

I think a lot has been said (a lot more than required) about city being found guity on 114 or whatever infractions and the likely punishments etc. It has already been highlighted how players like Elliot and Enzo are gonna feel about signing for a doomed club and all the more reason this verdict should have come in the summer. If this was announced in the summer, maybe just maybe United do get Elliot, maybe most players want out, city is forced have a fire sale, the transer market is in deflation, players like Rogers move for cheaper because you have Cherki, Foden, etc are in the market with similar profiles. Maybe Konsa stays, Arsenal get Guehi, Liverpool get Doku or Sememyo, maybe Halland moves to Bayern and Kane becomes available and moves back to Spurs, who knows (though I guarantee United still miss out on an LB, and Spurs still overpay for likes of Fernandez and Savio).

Anyway, what people are not talking about are the handful of games that City has already played and won. Now imagine, the most likely punishment for city is Expulsion/Relegation/Massive points deduction (meaning guaranteed Relegation again). If it is Relegation, this means any point forward, City players and staff will be demotivated and are gonna down their tools. Maybe not their next game, or the game after, but eventually yes. In that scenario teams that have already faced City, can they claim their games against city that have already been played were unfair. Can Sunderland, United and Coventry argue that they be awarded 3-0 victories instead? what about games in other competitions? can Porto say they were beat unfairly? or Norwich complain about their league cup loss.

Conclusion: Expulsion from almost competitions is probably the easiest case, and all games played being null and void. But is that legally enforceable? especially in champions league? whose jurisdiction is even applicable to it?

Then the fact that Everton were sued by Burnley and had to pay 35 mil compensation, means teams like United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and a lot more who missed winning PL/Finishing in top 4/6 missing out on CL/Europa, can sue, oh, this going to be a legal nightmare for City lawyers. Forget active football on the pitch and watch how this case unfolds how city challenges its fines and Punishments, or gets away with a slap on the wrist and then the uproar, is all gonna be one hell of a case. -Rahil, MUFC, India (and all the best to UAE threatening to pull investments from UK, they are in a terrible state due to the war, this is literally the best time to punish them)

(oh one more, what’s stopping City from loaning / selling all its top players to Girona, under some shady deal with buy back clauses, win the La Liga and bring them back by the time City is back in PL.)

To S Manchester Your email is the greatest (most likely deliberate) misunderstanding of the impact of what city’s cheating did….

1) all city did was “spend an equivalent amount of money to the established elite”… nope you spent a lot lot more and guess what, the big clubs couldnt respond because they were following the rules, not cheating like you…

2) if other mid or smaller clubs hadnt had to follow the rules, guess what, massively rich owners may have bought them, or the rich owners they have now would definitely have spent more which would have meant they could all have competed with city on the pitch instead of being blown away on the way to the fake 100 point seasons which I hope are all taken away from you along with all the tin pot trophies and parades with an embarrassing couple of thousand attending (the biggest indicator of what a small irrelevant club you actually are and now will always be). You are the equivalent of Ben Johnson if he had said “yeah I was just much smarter because I took the best steroids which made me the fastest”.

And the reaction of your club to being obviously guilty???!! Like spoilt petulant children. Go away to your beloved league 1 which is the league you were in the last time you had any real success and stay there. rojapy

Not into the internationals I’m not against it but 2 games is enough. Finlay x

It’s coming home Croatia 0 England 7.

Just read that again.

This wasn’t San Marino, Andorra or a collection of part-timers dragged out of the pub at five o’clock. This was Croatia, one of the best international sides on the planet for the best part of a decade.

And England absolutely f****g annihilated them.

Seven. Away from home. Against Croatia.

At times the gulf was so enormous it looked like Croatia had accidentally sent out their women’s team against England’s men. England were quicker, stronger and sharper, and played with a swagger that made a supposedly elite international side look completely out of its depth.

It wasn’t merely the scoreline. It was the dominance. England made Croatia look ordinary, then poor, then completely helpless. This was the sort of performance that deserves far more than a shrug because, well, England are expected to win these days.

And then there was the crowd.

Croatia were supposedly playing behind closed doors as punishment for the behaviour of their supporters. Yet somehow around 6,000 Croatian schoolchildren were allowed inside.

How exactly is that a stadium ban?

I’m all for getting kids into football. Give them free tickets every week. But surely not when the entire point of the sanction is that the home nation has forfeited the privilege of having a home crowd.

Imagine England being ordered to play behind closed doors at Wembley and then saying: “Fair enough, we’ll just invite 60,000 English schoolchildren.”

Nobody would call that a punishment. It simply wouldn’t be allowed.

Still, there was a beautiful irony to it.

Thousands of Croatian kids were invited along to watch their national heroes. They were playing in the aisles by 55 minutes, completely focused on banter not football.

Instead, they got a front-row seat to England absolutely dismantling them.

Seven bloody nil.

Against Croatia.

English not scouse for once. Robert The Toxteth Terrier Fowler

Ps Modric is an absolute legend of the game but seriously… 41 and they still pick him? He should be partying in a boat off the coast , doing yayo in the suite with an assortment of beauties. He’s earned it

England play like we’re world class against muppets and play like muppets against world class teams. This is our history. This is our culture. Ben